pgn4web testing thread

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Re: pgn4web testing thread

Postby Jeremy Bernstein » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:18 am

Uly wrote:
pgn4web wrote:If I guessed right when you can and when you can't see the scrollbars, then everything is working just fine and you probably will have to live with that :-( ...


Indeed. But why? Can't you make a horizontal scrollbar appear in where the user scrolls to the right to see the currently hidden vertical scrollbar?

@Jeremy: Can you make it optional for the user to use an old version of pgn4web? I don't think variation support is worth the new problems for me (and it's reasons like these I stuck with FF4 and old version of other software...)


Uly, this is not really an option. As far as pgn4web is concerned, I'm afraid you're just roadkill on the highway of progress... ;-)

Once I have a chance to examine the code and re-apply my customizations, maybe I'll find some difference between the old version and the new version which could explain what you're seeing.

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Re: pgn4web testing thread

Postby pgn4web » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:18 pm

Jeremy Bernstein wrote:Once I have a chance to examine the code and re-apply my customizations, maybe I'll find some difference between the old version and the new version which could explain what you're seeing.jb


The only thing that makes a difference (surprisingly) is the font size.
What happens, int Uli's PGN there's a long string from some spurious HTML code somehow copied and pasted in the game. That long string does not have spaces, so it does not allow a line break. Normally the game text wraps at the frame end, but because of that very long line the game moves container expands further right and remains hidden to the user. With your old version of software, either Uli never had such a long line, or the smaller font made that line a bit shorter and accidentally fit in the space.
Only way out is to change the structure of the frame, adding ugly horizontal scrollbars... or Uli should clean the pgn before pasting :)

On doing your adaptations, you might want to wait few more days, I'm looking at some details and I might improve slightly the keyboard navigation in a possible new release by next week or so. It wont be that much of a difference, just cleaner code and hopefully easier to use.
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Re: pgn4web testing thread

Postby Uly » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:30 pm

pgn4web wrote:With your old version of software [...] the smaller font made that line a bit shorter and accidentally fit in the space.


This.

pgn4web wrote:Only way out is to change the structure of the frame, adding ugly horizontal scrollbars...


Ugly? They're functional if it's the only way to see the vertical scrollbar. Also, they should only appear when they're needed. If as you claim, only "dirty" PGNs would need them, then most PGNs would appear without the "ugly" horizontal scrollbar.

pgn4web wrote: or Uli should clean the pgn before pasting :)


I actually noticed this problem on the PGNs pasted on the forum by kingliveson. It seems to be a common problem now that the tags use monospaced text.

pgn4web wrote:On doing your adaptations, you might want to wait few more days, I'm looking at some details and I might improve slightly the keyboard navigation in a possible new release by next week or so. It wont be that much of a difference, just cleaner code and hopefully easier to use.


Can we roll back to a previous version in the meantime? :lol:

(Because, PGNs posted with variations are not common, PGNs posted that make the vertical scrollbar disappear, are very common)
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Re: pgn4web testing thread

Postby pgn4web » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:47 pm

Uly wrote:Ugly? They're functional if it's the only way to see the vertical scrollbar. Also, they should only appear when they're needed. If as you claim, only "dirty" PGNs would need them, then most PGNs would appear without the "ugly" horizontal scrollbar.

True, but enabling the horizontal scrollbar is not so obvious. Notice that when the vertical scrollbar appears, only the game text and not the chessboard scroll. This means I simply cannot scroll the frame, otherwise the chessboard will disappear.
Anyway, if this really disturbs you, feel free to code a solution and send it to me for evaluation.

Uly wrote:I actually noticed this problem on the PGNs pasted on the forum by kingliveson. It seems to be a common problem now that the tags use monospaced text.

I actually dont make use of monospace text for the game text and for the header, so I dont understand what you are talking about.

ULy wrote:Can we roll back to a previous version in the meantime? :lol:

Feel free, but that is no longer supported... probably as FF4 :)

Uly wrote:(Because, PGNs posted with variations are not common, PGNs posted that make the vertical scrollbar disappear, are very common)

I prefer to concentrate my efforts to support people trying to do the right things, to post interesting games and comments rather than coping with people that cut&paste a game without making the effort to check whether the games shows up correctly and to remove eventual garbage from the text. If you dont want to spend the 30 seconds it takes to preview and clean a PGN file, why should I spend hours coding specific software to cope with your lazyness? If you can come up with a reasonable answer to this question, I might consider fixing the horizontal scroll issue :)
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Re: pgn4web testing thread

Postby Jeremy Bernstein » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:22 pm

pgn4web wrote:
Uly wrote:Ugly? They're functional if it's the only way to see the vertical scrollbar. Also, they should only appear when they're needed. If as you claim, only "dirty" PGNs would need them, then most PGNs would appear without the "ugly" horizontal scrollbar.

True, but enabling the horizontal scrollbar is not so obvious. Notice that when the vertical scrollbar appears, only the game text and not the chessboard scroll. This means I simply cannot scroll the frame, otherwise the chessboard will disappear.
Anyway, if this really disturbs you, feel free to code a solution and send it to me for evaluation.

Uly wrote:I actually noticed this problem on the PGNs pasted on the forum by kingliveson. It seems to be a common problem now that the tags use monospaced text.

I actually dont make use of monospace text for the game text and for the header, so I dont understand what you are talking about.

ULy wrote:Can we roll back to a previous version in the meantime? :lol:

Feel free, but that is no longer supported... probably as FF4 :)

Uly wrote:(Because, PGNs posted with variations are not common, PGNs posted that make the vertical scrollbar disappear, are very common)

I prefer to concentrate my efforts to support people trying to do the right things, to post interesting games and comments rather than coping with people that cut&paste a game without making the effort to check whether the games shows up correctly and to remove eventual garbage from the text. If you dont want to spend the 30 seconds it takes to preview and clean a PGN file, why should I spend hours coding specific software to cope with your lazyness? If you can come up with a reasonable answer to this question, I might consider fixing the horizontal scroll issue :)


As a programmer + website admin + site user, I think you both have good points, but I think that "laziness" (as in, "too lazy to view a chessboard without board coordinates or a side-to-move indicator", or "too lazy to not examine and clean up a PGN file that was generated by a popular chess database program before posting it on a forum") is very much in the eye of the beholder. For my part, I'll try to help Uly out with the issues he's having.

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Re: pgn4web testing thread

Postby Uly » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:59 am

Thanks Jeremy, I guess it all comes down to this:

The new pgn4web installed on the forum is using mono-spaced text, which turns out too big and causes all the other problems. The previous pgn4web with your changes used Proportional, which was small enough to avoid all those problems.

That's about it. Could you check if the code to set fonts was changed so it's now confusing the browser or something?

PS - I'm not a coder or programmer, I'm a user and dislike the way I was forced to beta test pgn4web and the way its programmer talks to me after I tried to give feedback, it sounds condescending and I don't think I'll ever try to help pgn4web after such treatment. See, gmail rolled out their new Beta version which is horrid, but at least they did give the users the option to use their previous version.
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Re: pgn4web testing thread

Postby pgn4web » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:31 am

Uly wrote:The new pgn4web installed on the forum is using mono-spaced text, which turns out too big and causes all the other problems.

You say below that you are not a coder or a programmer, so don't make technical statements about something you don't understand: pgn4web does not use monospace fonts: where do you get this from?

Uly wrote:PS - I'm not a coder or programmer, I'm a user and dislike the way I was forced to beta test pgn4web and the way its programmer talks to me after I tried to give feedback, it sounds condescending and I don't think I'll ever try to help pgn4web after such treatment.

If you don't like the pgn4web software or the attitude of the developer, I really ask you to stop using the software immediately; I'll make sure to refund what you have paid me for it. Please stop using the software either in its original form or any modified form still covered by the original license. If you come across a site or a forum that made the (questionable) choice of installing it, please ignore the small chessboard, the non-monospace fonts and the disappearing scrollbars. Even better, if you use a software like AdBlock on your browser, a blocking rule for any URL containing the string “pgn4web/board.html” will prevent the chessboard from loading in the first place.
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Re: pgn4web testing thread

Postby Jeremy Bernstein » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:06 am

Uly wrote:Thanks Jeremy, I guess it all comes down to this:

The new pgn4web installed on the forum is using mono-spaced text, which turns out too big and causes all the other problems. The previous pgn4web with your changes used Proportional, which was small enough to avoid all those problems.

That's about it. Could you check if the code to set fonts was changed so it's now confusing the browser or something?


I changed the font size back to what it was for now (until I've had a chance to look at this -- remember, this all requires time investments on everyone's part, even "flipping a switch"). The issue noted above by pgn4web with the dense comment text, etc. is still there, but maybe it doesn't come up so much with the smaller font size. Again, as soon as I have a moment and feel like I can devote it to this stuff, I will. I don't want to roll the code back, since I think pgn4web's addition of variations in a supported version a) is important, b) is desirable for OpenChess and c) needs further "production" testing. Hopefully the font change gets you going.

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Re: pgn4web testing thread

Postby Uly » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:12 am

pgn4web wrote:If you don't like the pgn4web software or the attitude of the developer, I really ask you to stop using the software immediately


Huh? I can't, every time my forum account accesses a post by other members that uses the PGN tabs, my browser is forced to use your software. Using Adblock to block the CSS and Scripts also causes the PGN text to not appear at all. If there was an option to turn it off, I'd have gone for it the first time you berated me.

*Requesting a way to shut down PGN tabs, though it's doubtful it's going to happen*

Also, "it's free!" is not a good exclude for poor support, I could also get bitten by a dog for free.

Jeremy Bernstein wrote:I changed the font size back to what it was for now (until I've had a chance to look at this -- remember, this all requires time investments on everyone's part, even "flipping a switch"). The issue noted above by pgn4web with the dense comment text, etc. is still there, but maybe it doesn't come up so much with the smaller font size. Again, as soon as I have a moment and feel like I can devote it to this stuff, I will. I don't want to roll the code back, since I think pgn4web's addition of variations in a supported version a) is important, b) is desirable for OpenChess and c) needs further "production" testing. Hopefully the font change gets you going.


Thanks Jeremy, but pgn4web has asked me to stop using his software and I'd like to comply, however, Adblocking it makes the PGN text disappear so I can't look at the games posted by members with those tags.
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Re: pgn4web testing thread

Postby Jeremy Bernstein » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:38 am

Uly wrote:
pgn4web wrote:If you don't like the pgn4web software or the attitude of the developer, I really ask you to stop using the software immediately


Huh? I can't, every time my forum account accesses a post by other members that uses the PGN tabs, my browser is forced to use your software. Using Adblock to block the CSS and Scripts also causes the PGN text to not appear at all. If there was an option to turn it off, I'd have gone for it the first time you berated me.

*Requesting a way to shut down PGN tabs, though it's doubtful it's going to happen*

Also, "it's free!" is not a good exclude for poor support, I could also get bitten by a dog for free.

Jeremy Bernstein wrote:I changed the font size back to what it was for now (until I've had a chance to look at this -- remember, this all requires time investments on everyone's part, even "flipping a switch"). The issue noted above by pgn4web with the dense comment text, etc. is still there, but maybe it doesn't come up so much with the smaller font size. Again, as soon as I have a moment and feel like I can devote it to this stuff, I will. I don't want to roll the code back, since I think pgn4web's addition of variations in a supported version a) is important, b) is desirable for OpenChess and c) needs further "production" testing. Hopefully the font change gets you going.


Thanks Jeremy, but pgn4web has asked me to stop using his software and I'd like to comply, however, Adblocking it makes the PGN text disappear so I can't look at the games posted by members with those tags.


You're on your own there. :-)

FWIW, he didn't ask you to stop using it, he said if you don't like it or his attitude, you should stop using it. You still have the option to try to solve the issue (with me or with him) to your satisfaction. pgn4web is not OC-specific and Paolo has no particular reason to try to solve our problems here -- that he does so is very generous, and certainly appreciated. I would prefer if he could do so without calling users "lazy", but OK, that's his attitude, and I respect some of the reasoning behind it, even if I don't care for how it's expressed. So, pgn4web is not going away (as a technology), and I really don't have the time to implement a competing or complementary system.

Anyone who wants to provide me with a zero-config, drop-in solution is welcome to do so, and I'll consider adding it as an option. Otherwise, let's try to be constructive and solve the issues. Did my font change improve anything?

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