Rating List Links

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Rating List Links

Postby Jeremy Bernstein » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:38 am

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Re: Rating List Links

Postby Rebel » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:24 am

Let me bite: on all these rating lists the proclaimed clones (Ippo & co) are banned. Isn't computer chess about the strongest engine mainly?

Let's face reality, the sources are available for everybody free of use. They won't go away. Some will produce stronger engines based on these free available sources, I want to know.

Besides of this, there is no shred of evidence Ippo & co are disassembled from Rybka. Sorry Vas.

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Re: Rating List Links

Postby Jeremy Bernstein » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:42 pm

Rebel wrote:Let me bite: on all these rating lists the proclaimed clones (Ippo & co) are banned. Isn't computer chess about the strongest engine mainly?

Let's face reality, the sources are available for everybody free of use. They won't go away. Some will produce stronger engines based on these free available sources, I want to know.

Besides of this, there is no shred of evidence Ippo & co are disassembled from Rybka. Sorry Vas.

Ed


For sure. If you have links to rating lists which are more inclusive, send me a PM, and I'll post them. I just get tired of using google to find the links, so I posted the ones I check from time to time.
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Re: Rating List Links

Postby Chris Whittington » Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:04 pm




Does anybody have a proof that rating list ELO correlates to chess playing skill?

Or that the relationship between rating list ELO and chess playing skill is in any way linear?

Or that changes in rating list ELO map negatively or positively to decreases/increases in chess playing skill?

Or that rating lists composed from multi-games between similar machine entities actually measure anything useful at all?

Why not just throw these lists into the poubelle?
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Re: Rating List Links

Postby Jeremy Bernstein » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:49 pm

Chris Whittington wrote:



Does anybody have a proof that rating list ELO correlates to chess playing skill?

Or that the relationship between rating list ELO and chess playing skill is in any way linear?

Or that changes in rating list ELO map negatively or positively to decreases/increases in chess playing skill?

Or that rating lists composed from multi-games between similar machine entities actually measure anything useful at all?

Why not just throw these lists into the poubelle?


Well, they measure something. Do you have a proposal for evaluation of comparitive chess playing skill?

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Re: Rating List Links

Postby Peter C » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:07 pm

Chris Whittington wrote:Does anybody have a proof that rating list ELO correlates to chess playing skill?

Or that the relationship between rating list ELO and chess playing skill is in any way linear?


Why wouldn't it?

No, it's logarithmic. The strength difference between 3000 elo entity and 2900 entity is greater than the difference between 2500 entity and 2400 entity.

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Re: Rating List Links

Postby thorstenczub » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:55 pm

Jeremy Bernstein wrote:
Rebel wrote:Let me bite: on all these rating lists the proclaimed clones (Ippo & co) are banned. Isn't computer chess about the strongest engine mainly?

Let's face reality, the sources are available for everybody free of use. They won't go away. Some will produce stronger engines based on these free available sources, I want to know.

Besides of this, there is no shred of evidence Ippo & co are disassembled from Rybka. Sorry Vas.

Ed


For sure. If you have links to rating lists which are more inclusive, send me a PM, and I'll post them. I just get tired of using google to find the links, so I posted the ones I check from time to time.


The rating list guys have to make nice negotiations/companionship with the companies/programmers who deliver the engines. especially the commercial engines/programmers make pressure on the rating list guys, some pressure diplomatic, some pressure between the lines,
that they should not "support" these engines.
some pressure is done not directly but by people from the surrounding of the programmer working field, the so called water-bearers (in german: wasserträger).
they are often right hand of programmers, operate the programs, control the forums,
some are even admins at playchess etc.

together with the mc_carthy-like computerchess police this creates the witch hunts
the strange censorship in some commercial forums such as hiarcs forum,
rybka forum, talkchess (CCC) etc.

welcome back in the mc carthy times of USA in the 50th year of the 20th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

these things are as old as computerchess rating lists exists.
and the criticism to this is also as old.
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Re: Rating List Links

Postby Zarkon » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:35 am

Chris Whittington wrote:



Does anybody have a proof that rating list ELO correlates to chess playing skill?

Or that the relationship between rating list ELO and chess playing skill is in any way linear?

Or that changes in rating list ELO map negatively or positively to decreases/increases in chess playing skill?

Or that rating lists composed from multi-games between similar machine entities actually measure anything useful at all?

Why not just throw these lists into the poubelle?



What is "playing skill" ? The rating lists presumably measure how engines performed against other engines using the match conditions, and the Elos can be used to estimate future results.

I agree that it is a bit of a red herring though. It's useful if you want to win engine matches, but, for me, this is one of the least interesting aspects of computer chess. I'd rather ask how useful I find an engine to analyze with, how enjoyable I find it to play against.
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Re: Rating List Links

Postby Zarkon » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:38 am

Peter C wrote:
Chris Whittington wrote:Does anybody have a proof that rating list ELO correlates to chess playing skill?

Or that the relationship between rating list ELO and chess playing skill is in any way linear?


Why wouldn't it?

No, it's logarithmic. The strength difference between 3000 elo entity and 2900 entity is greater than the difference between 2500 entity and 2400 entity.

Peter


Are you sure? I thought a 100 Elo difference would mean that one player would score x% against the other, regardless of where it sits on the scale.
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Re: Rating List Links

Postby BB+ » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:31 am

I can add a philosophical question that has recently entered been mentioned with the R4 release (and testing therein).

Why test "ponder off" while simultaneously allowing the engine to manage time? Why not just test old-style lightning chess with repeated "go movetime 10000" commands or the like? I can agree that "ponder on" tests the whole engine (at least if you don't attach the book to the engine) at chess-playing, but why bother to test time management once you've made the leap to turning ponder off? I think one author said that "ponder off" was rather arbitrary, and rather like saying "no qsearch". Given that time management is variously claimed to be worth as much as 20 ELO (or more), it seems that the "ponder off" lists might want to exclude this facet, especially if the idea of "ponder off" testing is to give an idea of how good of analysis to expect from the engine. Then again, some engines seem to have a different schema in analysis versus gameplay, so maybe no metric is perfect.
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